Позволю себе влезть в дискуссию
 

Немного странная формулировка. Матрица - это и есть "повседневная жизнь обычных людей". Контролирует ли она восприятие мира - разумеется, да, на 100%. Влияет ли она свободу воли - вряд ли.

Разумеется. Это прямым текстом говорит Агент Смит. "Once Zeon is destroyed, there's no longer need for me to be." Агенты - это исключительно контрразведка, защита от внешнего вторжения.

Вообще-то фильм достаточно глубокий и многослойный. Причём слоёв больше чем два. Но вот увязать все эти слои в единую сюжетную линию, мне кажется, они не смогли.
Отсюда и все непонятки.

Добавлю свои два цента. Цитаты, только цитаты.

Morpheus: I can see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, this is not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.

Morpheus: Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?
Neo: This can't be...
Morpheus: Be what? Be real?

(Construct)
Morpheus: This is the construct. It's our loading program. We can load anything from clothing, to equipment, weapons, training simulations, anything we need.
Neo: Right now we're inside a computer program?
Morpheus: Is it really so hard to believe? Your clothes are different. The plugs in your arms and head are gone. Your hair has changed. Your appearance now is what we call residual self image. It is the mental projection of your digital self.

Morpheus: I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain. But you feel it. You've felt it your entire life. That there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is but it's there, like a splinter in your mind driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix?
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is? The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us, even now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. A prison for your mind.... Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. This is your last chance. After this there is no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes... Remember, all I'm offering is the truth, nothing more... Follow me...

Morpheus: What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. This is the world that you know. The world as it was at the end of the twentieth century. It exists now only as part of a neural-interactive simulation that we call the Matrix. You've been living in a dream world, Neo. This is the world as it exists today... Welcome.. to the desert.. of the real. We have only bits and pieces of information but what we know for certain is that at some point in the early twenty-first century all of mankind was united in celebration. We marveled at our own magnificence as we gave birth to AI.

Morpheus: A singular consciousness that spawned an entire race of machines. We don't know who struck first, us or them. But we know that it was us that scorched the sky. At the time they were dependent on solar power and it was believed that they would be unable to survive without an energy source as abundant as the sun. Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. The human body generates more bio-electricity than a 120-volt battery and over 25,000 BTUs of body heat. Combined with a form of fusion, the machines have found all the energy they would ever need. There are fields, endless fields, where human beings are no longer born. We are grown. For the longest time I wouldn't believe it, and then I saw the fields with my own eyes. Watch them liquefy the dead so they could be fed intravenously to the living. And standing there, facing the pure horrifying precision, I came to realize the obviousness of the truth. What is the Matrix? Control. The Matrix is a computer generated dream world built to keep us under control in order to change a human being into this.

Morpheus: I feel I owe you an apology. We have a rule. We never free a mind once it's reached a certain age. It's dangerous, the mind has trouble letting go. I've seen it before and I'm sorry. I did what I did because...I had to.

(Dojo)
Morpheus: This is a sparring program, similar to the programmed reality of the Matrix. It has the same basic rules, rules like gravity. What you must learn is that these rules are no different that the rules of a computer system. Some of them can be bent. Others can be broken. Understand? Then hit me. If you can....

(Dojo)
Morpheus: Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place? You think that's air you're breathing now?... Again.

(Jump program)
Morpheus: I'm trying to free your mind, Neo, but I can only show you the door, you're the one that has to walk through it. Tank, load the jump program... You have to let it all go, Neo, fear, doubt, and disbelief. Free your mind.

(Nebuchadnezzar)
Neo: I thought it wasn't real.
Morpheus: Your mind makes it real.
Neo: If you're killed in the Matrix, you die here?
Morpheus: The body cannot live without the mind.

(Construct)
Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see? Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it. Were you listening to me, Neo, or were you looking at the woman in the red dress?

Neo: This...this isn't the Matrix?
Morpheus: No. It's another training program designed to teach you one thing. If you are not one of us, you are one of them.
Neo: What are they?
Morpheus: Sentient programs. They can move in and out of any software still hard-wired to their system. That means that anyone we haven't unplugged is potentially an agent. Inside the Matrix, they are everyone and they are no one. We are survived by hiding from them by running from them. But they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors. They are holding all the keys, which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them.

Morpheus: I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall. Men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air. Yet their strength and their speed are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be.

(Office)
Agent Smith: Have you ever stood and stared at it, marveled at its beauty, its genius? Billions of people just living out their lives, oblivious. Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world. Where none suffered. Where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed that we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that as a species, human beings define their reality through misery and suffering. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this, the peak of your civilization. I say your civilization because as soon as we started thinking for you it really became our civilization which is, of course, what this is all about. Evolution, Morpheus, evolution. Like the dinosaur. Look out that window. You had your time. The future is our world, Morpheus. The future is our time.

(Office)
Agent Smith: Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell. If there is such a thing. I feel.. saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it, it's repulsive. I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You are going to tell me or you are going to die.

(Phone)
Neo, The One: I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.

Возможно, это вам поможет. Удачи.

Re: Позволю себе влезть в дискуссию
 

Привет и тебе, Wayseeker.

Немного странная формулировка.:) Как-то иначе представлял себе "повседневную жизнь обычных людей".
Впрочем, следующие два предложения для меня многое прояснили. В том числе в моем собственном восприятии мира.
Посему - спасибо.:beer:

Про неувязывание слоев - согласен полностью. Что, впрочем, не мешает мне преданно любить сей фильм.

Если возникнет желание поговорить про слои и смыслы, ты всегда найдешь меня здесь.

С меня столько ящиков пива, сколько вы в состоянии пересчитать. Спасибо. :beer:

Re: Продолжаем.
 

Это организм. Согласно тем же теориям, человеческая личность складывается к 3-м годам. :) Кстати, не вижу принципиальной разницы между разумом 25 и 30-летних.

О второй части. Я понял про батарейки. :) Вопрос был немного о другом. Чем, по-твоему отличается жизнь именно разума, не тела, в Матрице и в реале? Для неразбуженных, конечно.
На мой взгляд - ничем. :)

Добрался до треда, отвечаю на все по порядку.
Здесь находится один из наиболее полных списков фильмов, объединенных "виртуальностью вообще".

Re: Клево, матрица!
 

Тогда возможно тебе понравится "The Animatrix".
Информация с IMDB:
Directed by
Peter Chung - (segment "Matriculated")
Andy Jones (VI) - (segment "Final Flight of the Osiris, The")
Yoshiaki Kawajiri - (segment "Program")
Takeshi Koike - (segment "World Record")
Mahiro Maeda - (segments "Second Renaissance Part 1, The", "Second Renaissance Part 2, The")
Kouji Morimoto - (segment "Beyond")
Shinichirô Watanabe - (segment "Kid's Story")

То же самое - всем любителям аниме.

Re: Ну что, самому, что ли, прочитать? (с)
 

(Restaurant)
Agent Smith: Do we have a deal, Mr. Reagan?
Cypher: You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.
Agent Smith: Then we have a deal?
Cypher: I don't want to remember nothing. Nothing. You understand? And I want to be rich. You know, someone important. Like an actor.
Agent Smith: Whatever you want, Mr. Reagan.

Цитата:

<skip>Агент Смит - пожалуй, лучший из персонажей. Как он протяжно произносит "Mr Anderson" - это классика :) Полное слияние актера с ролью.<skip>

Напомнил мне одну пародию на "Матрицу". Обязательно найду. Там как раз обыгрывался акцент Уивинга. ;)

Я эту цитату уже постил, приведу ее еще раз.
(Phone)
Neo: I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid. You're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you, a world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries, a world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.

Имхо тут речь идет лишь об устранении ограничений, выставляемых системой, в частности - агентов. Разрушать Матрицу, как систему, никто не собирается.

Ключевое слово - "вроде". Почему бы не предположить, что агенты планомерно избавляют популяцию от "слишком умных", как , например, от детей-паранормов, сидевших в гостиной у Оракула?

Цитата:

<skip>Так что ответ для меня по-прежнему не очевиден: за что сражается Сопротивление? Какова их цель? Их позиционируют как героев скорее положительных, по крайней мере сочуствие зрителя должно быть на их стороне. Однако чего они добиваются на самом деле? Можно ли найти ответ, исходя из их стратегии и тактики, как ты думаешь? <skip>

"Настоящим" людям, живущим в Зайоне, тоже надо жить и желательно хорошо. Ползая по канализации, новый мир не построишь. А большинство наличных ресурсов принадлежит Матрице. А она ими почему-то делиться не хочет и сопротивляется.
Так что уничтожение "каракатиц" и Агентов позволяет получить доступ к ресурсам, одновременно позволяя остальному человечеству продолжать вести растительную жизнь.

Re: Re: Re: Продолжаем.
 

Не соглашусь с этим. Нигде не говорится, что после выхода Агента из чьего-либо сознания оно погибает. Вполне возможно, ты просто продолжаешь жить, не заметив, что из твоей жизни выпал кусок.
То, что просле убийства Агента остается то тело, в которое он вошел, еще ничего не говорит. Кроме того, что Агенты принципиально бессмертны.

Re: Re: Продолжаем.
 

В Матрице у сознания больше возможностей. Гибкий разум, осознавший (хотя бы частично) свою инакость, может пользоваться всеми благами, представляемыми ему этой средой. Все эти прыжки, полеты, сгибания ложек и прочие подобные попирания законов физики.
В реальном мире это, очевидно, невозможно

Продолжаем.
 

Ключевое слово - "неразбуженных.";) Кстати, о реальном мире я бы тоже словое "очевидно" не употреблял. Что мы знаем о гибких разумах, осознавших свою инакость?:rolleyes: :D

В вопросе о трупах я с тобой полностью согласен. Насколько помню, трупы оставались только после "убийства" агентов. Ниоткуда не следует, что все "посещаемые" агентами погибали. К тому же, имхо, это было не рационально. :)

Похоже, все пришли к консенсусу, что Матрицу никто уничтожать не собирается. Моя доволен. :cool:

Re: Re: Продолжаем.
 

Гугль :D Скрипт фильма. Зип с текстовым файлом в аттаче.

What is the Matrix?
 

Может я просто не нашел, но мне показалось, что фан-клуба, посвященного "Матрице" на форуме нет.
Если это так, то этим постом я торжественно его отрываю! :beer:

По Матртице нет, а по Матрице -уже.:lol:

Эх, пропадают Васины усилия втуне. Ну не хочут люди изучать списки существующих тредов.:cry: ;)

В таком случае - пардон. Только ткните, пожалуйста, пальцем, в Васином путеводителе сабжа не нашел...

Путеводитель давненько уже не обновлялся...
Ты веришь в судьбу, Нео?... - вот тред.

Спасибо :)

Новый тизер. Правда, японский, но содержит новые интересные кадры.

http://www.nintendofanboy.com/reloadedCM.mpeg

Прикольное издевательство над The Matrix.

А есть какие-нибудь действительно хорошие, информативные русскоязычные сайты по Матрице, по философии Матрицы, в частности?